[Savannah-help-public] [sr #106581] doing something about stale jobs?

[Karl Berry]

URL:
<http://savannah.gnu.org/support/?106581>

Summary: doing something about stale jobs?
Project: Savannah Administration
Submitted by: karl
Submitted on: Fri 12 Dec 2008 04:40:23 PM PST
Category: Trackers (bugs, support, tasks...)
Priority: 5 - Normal
Severity: 3 - Normal
Status: None
Assigned to: None
Originator Email:
Operating System: None
Open/Closed: Open
Discussion Lock: Any

_______________________________________________________

Details:

[a user made this suggestion to me.]

looking at the developer jobs list
(https://savannah.gnu.org/people/?category_id=1), there are jobs going back to
2001.

perhaps it would be useful to send a reminder to people whose jobs have gone
N years without change, and ask them to update it -- a posting would seem more
likely to actually find people if it is periodically updated. (Even if there
are no actual changes to the job description, trivial changes could be made to
bump the date.)

perhaps we should even go so far as to delete jobs that have gone, say, 2*N
years without change. i'm even less sure about this, though.

maybe N = 2.

just an idea.





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[anonymous]

Follow-up Comment #1, sr #106581 (project administration):

http://weight-loss-camps.info/
http://www.brightsmileteethwhitening.info/
http://weight-loss-spa.info/
http://www.1hoodiagordoniiplus.info/
http://www.vacationpackagestohawaii.info/
http://www.automotivefloormats.info/
http://www.shockcollarsfordogs.info/
http://www.1webdesignandhosting.info/
http://www.camera-mobile-phones.info/
http://cadillacfloormats.info/
http://www.patiofurniturecoversinfo.info/
http://castaluminumpatiofurniture.info/
http://fastbusinessloans.info/
http://www.homeloan-interestrates.info/
http://www.menscashmereweaters.info/
http://www.westernweddingdresses.info/

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[Brandon Invergo]

Follow-up Comment #2, sr #106581 (project administration):

I agree that it should be cleaned up.

I've rethought it and changed my opinion compared to what I wrote to
savannah-hackers-public. Here is how I think it could be handled:

1) Once a posting has been open for one year, contact the poster to confirm
that the position is still open
2) If the position is still open, request that they update the post. If the
position is closed, set the post status to "closed"
3) Once a post has been closed for one year, remove it

The initial clean-up should be handled a bit more leniently, though. For
example, people would be requested to update posts between, say, one and three
years old. After the requests go out and a reasonable amount of time passes to
allow action by the posters, any closed or non-updated Help Wanted ad would be
removed.

[Karl Berry]

Follow-up Comment #3, sr #106581 (project administration):

Hi Brandon -- thanks for jumping in with this.

I completely agree with 1) and 2), but (despite what I wrote originally :) why
delete old postings, any more than there is to delete old bug reports? After
all, it's not unlikely that the same need will recur after a volunteer leaves
a project. As long as a posting is closed, it wouldn't be normally visible,
so it seems harmless.

Also, I'm not sure about "forcing" people to change the text. For example, I
have two jobs open for Texinfo that are just about to hit a one-year mark.
They are still open, but there is nothing to change about the text. I guess I
could do some meaningless tweak just to update the date, but if a maintainer
chooses not to do that, I don't think it would be right to just arbitrarily
close it.

In general, if a maintainer says a job is still open, I don't think it's our
place to close it, regardless of whether the text is updated.

Thus, my proposal would be less hard-line:
- if a posting is open and >1 year old, contact maintainer.
- if maintainer says it's old, fine, we or they can close.
- if maintainer says it's still valid, fine, leave it open (and strongly
recommend they update the text as needed).
- if maintainer does not reply, give them a while, try again (maybe from
another email account, given the realities of spam filters) and say "we will
close this soon if we don't hear from you", and so that in another week or
two.

wdyt?

thanks again,
k


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[Brandon Invergo]

Hi Karl,

I should preface this by saying that I guess I didn't do a good enough
job digging into the Savane software! I didn't realize that closed ads
are hidden from view (I naively saw all the old ads and assumed that
many of them were closed and just needed to be cleaned out). Since
that's the case, I agree that there is no real reason to remove closed
ones.

I think your moderate approach would, indeed, be better and I think your
proposed protocol is good. One specific question about the Savane
software: can the author manually just update the date of the post or
does the text have to be updated in order to do so? While I don't think
we should force anyone to change the text (you're right), still I would
want to strongly encourage that they at least update the date. I'm
speaking from at least my own psychological reaction to the old ads:
when I first came to Savannah looking for something to do and I noticed
that a lot of the Help Wanted ads were dating back years, I immediately
started ignoring those old ones on the assumption that they're
out-of-date. So, the author can do as he/she chooses, but changing the
date would help keep Savannah looking fresh, not to mention getting it
more attention (in my opinion).

So, I would send a message something like this:
"Hello,
My name is Brandon Invergo and I am helping to [clean
up?/moderate?/organize?/keep clean?] the Help Wanted section of
Savannah, the GNU software forge. On Month DD, YYYY, you posted an ad
titled "Hacker needed for Hello, World." Is this call still open? If it
is, we would like to encourage you to update the [date?/text?], helping
to increase the visibility of the ad while keeping the Help Wanted list
fresh. If it is no longer open, then we would request that you set its
status to "Closed." Keep in mind that if the position becomes available
again, you are welcome to re-open the call.

Thank you very much for your help.
Cheers,
Brandon"

How does that sound? A bit dry and formal I guess, but it's something
that can be worked on.

-brandon

ps - I'm not sure if it matters, but if it looks better and probably
fits more within the GNU philosophy, I can send such admin emails from
the email address on my personal domain rather than from this Gmail
one.

Post by Karl Berry
Hi Brandon -- thanks for jumping in with this.
I completely agree with 1) and 2), but (despite what I wrote originally :) why
delete old postings, any more than there is to delete old bug reports? After
all, it's not unlikely that the same need will recur after a volunteer leaves
a project. As long as a posting is closed, it wouldn't be normally visible,
so it seems harmless.
Also, I'm not sure about "forcing" people to change the text. For example, I
have two jobs open for Texinfo that are just about to hit a one-year mark.
They are still open, but there is nothing to change about the text. I guess I
could do some meaningless tweak just to update the date, but if a maintainer
chooses not to do that, I don't think it would be right to just arbitrarily
close it.
In general, if a maintainer says a job is still open, I don't think it's our
place to close it, regardless of whether the text is updated.
- if a posting is open and >1 year old, contact maintainer.
- if maintainer says it's old, fine, we or they can close.
- if maintainer says it's still valid, fine, leave it open (and strongly
recommend they update the text as needed).
- if maintainer does not reply, give them a while, try again (maybe from
another email account, given the realities of spam filters) and say "we will
close this soon if we don't hear from you", and so that in another week or
two.
wdyt?
thanks again,
k
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[Assaf Gordon]

Follow-up Comment #4, sr #106581 (project administration):

Hello Karl, Brandon,

If you agree, I'm going to pickup this cleanup issue.

But my stance is different:
I think clean-up / purging should be very aggressive.

Here's my rationale:
1. Broadly speaking, every free-software project could use more
developers/contributors.
I could automatically post a "help wanted" for every project on GNU Savannah,
detecting the project's main programming language and asking for a developer
with relevant experience - and it will be valid forever.

2. Because of #1, I think that generic posts (especially old ones) are not
adding any value or providing any information beyond the obvious, and as such
can and should be closed.

3. If a post has been seen stale for a year - I would take it as either:
there's no interest from volunteers; or that the post's wording is
ineffective; or something similar.
In all cases, the post is not working, and should be closed.
It's reasonable to notify the developer who posted it, and he/she should
consider posting a new message.

4. While I don't have any statistics to support this claim (I'll be glad to
try gather them), it's my unsubstantiated impression that the job posting on
Savannah is not the most popular/effective way to recruit developers - these
days there any many more popular methods 'out there' (which, obviously, did
not exist when Savannah just started).
Perhaps this could be improved, or perhaps it should be evaluated if this
feature is still useful.

To conclude,
If my approach is acceptable, I'll do the following:
1. For messages older than 3 years and inactive projects (no commits in last 3
years), I'll mark the post as deleted.
2. For messages older than 3 years and active projects, I'll contact the
developer and give notice before marking as "deleted".
3. Messages of 3 years or less, contact developers.

To put things in perspective, out of 129 posting:
1 is from 2014, 5 are from 2013, 2 are from 2012, 5 are from 2011.

Let me know what you think.
- Assaf.


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[Karl Berry]

Follow-up Comment #5, sr #106581 (project administration):

only time for one short question now: what are these other "effective" ways
that GNU packages could recruit developers?

For many years now, sv job postings are the central way we recommend package
maintainers look for contributors. And I have often seen people come forward
as a result -- maybe not quickly, certainly not always, but surprisingly
often.

k



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[Assaf Gordon]

Follow-up Comment #6, sr #106581 (project administration):

Hello Karl,

Item #4 is only an opinion, and I should have voiced it more subtly.
If it sounded harsh I apologize.

I do think, however, that the list as it currently stands is not inviting:
it does not give the impression of a vibrant community and active projects.

To me, to be effective, the list has to be up-to-date, and the posting should
be specific about an a current issue; and purged when they are old, even it
not fulfilled.
And while these postings on the website are more "stable" (as opposed to
ephemeral),
announcing them could be done on other websites and media, perhaps even GNU's
twitter account.
(This of course mean, complementing items #1 and #2 below, that generic "we
need a developer" posts are not effective to begin with).

As a newcomer to GNU, I don't recall visiting this page before
(In the past I have contributed few minor things to GNU coreutils and GNU awk,
and have been using GNU software for a while).

When I looked through the list, my impression was:
1. Most of the older posting refer to "ghost" projects - projects that either
never released code, barely committed code, announcing they are in
"alpha/planning" stage and need a developer, or projects whose last CVS commit
was 8/11/12 years ago (coincidentally, exactly the time of the "help wanted"
post).

2. Other projects are not relevant any more.
Few examples:
"GNU DotNot" - The post is from 2006.
If one goes to the project's website to see what is going on, the first thing
they see is:
"As of December 2012, the DotGNU project has been decommissioned".

"Free High School Science Texts" - The post is from 2006.
All the links on the Savannah page are broken.
Internet search leads to the official website: http://www.fhsst.org - which
redirects to a different e-learning commercial company.

3. Some postings are for GNU projects and are relevant, but the post does not
add repute to the projects:

"gnumed" - the post is from 2002, asking for help with Python/PostgreSQL.
going to the project's website redirects to a place outside www.gnu.org,
and their code is not even hosted on Savannah anymore (but on gitorious).


"GNU Help Wanted" - has seven postings, more than any other projects.
But few of them link to accounts that were deleted. So messages read like:
"This project would be mentored by the findutils maintainers. Consult the
mailing list -unavailable- for more details."

and

"A program to edit dance notation (such as labanotation) and display dancers
moving on the screen is wanted. Gepetto does some of this work. Contact
-unavailable- if you are interested in helping finish the job."

There's also a post from 2003, asking for:
"A shared memory X11 server to run under MACH is very desirable"


"GNU Hurd" - the post is from 2011, quite literally saying "we always need
more developers", and redirecting to the GNU Hurd website.


4. The single posting from 2014 is closer to what I have in mind. It's details
very specific need for Ruby developers to explore a specific task.
Such a post could be "teased" on other websites as "Looking for a Ruby expert
who loves Gravatars" (or another phrasing of course).
But here again - if the visitor tries to go to the one obvious place - the
project's homepage, he/she will get 404:
http://www.nongnu.org/gravaty/

=====

Now, I do not claim for one second that any of those developer "must" or "are
obliged" to fix their post or fix their projects or change them in any way or
update their homepage.
I am well aware that all are volunteers, and enjoy hacking on their own free
time, and owe nothing to no one (except being Free Software).

But as a page that should give a positive image of GNU/Savannah related
projects - I think it is doing a disservice by keeping these posts.

In other hosting services 'out there', there's a clear understanding that each
user and each project are "on their own". One project's poor appearance does
not lend to the others'.
But on Savannah there does seem to be an attempt to create symbiosis, and
these kind of appearances reflect on the entire site.

=====

In my mind, an effective method would be:
1. A project drafts a new post for a needed task, preferably specific (to the
next release, to a new feature, etc.).
2. There is some minimal requirement of a post - like a proper project
website, contact information, etc.
3. The new post is also promoted elsewhere (twitter, libreplanet, others).
4. The people who follow the announcement reach this list, and they are also
exposed to other posts, which must be relevant.
5. out-dated posts are purged, regardless of result.

Would this cause more work for posters? yes.
But it seems few active projects actually use it, so we might as well make it
effective for those who do.

Regards,
- Assaf

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[Brandon Invergo]

Hi Assaf,

Thanks for the interest in picking this task back up. The topic of
cleaning up the list has come up a few times so I think there is still
merit to the idea, thankless slog of a job that it may be.

One thought (without knowing anything about the software backend): might
it be easier to just hide items older than X years rather than deleting
them, and make them still be viewable via an "Old items" link? Then no
one will have to dig through all the old posts to verify that they're
still relevant, no one might get offended by their post being removed,
and the list that initial visitors see will still appear substantially
cleaned up.

That is, of course, only if that part of the code is easy to hack on.

-brandon

[Assaf Gordon]

Hello Brandon,

Post by Brandon Invergo
Thanks for the interest in picking this task back up. The topic of
cleaning up the list has come up a few times so I think there is still
merit to the idea, thankless slog of a job that it may be.
One thought (without knowing anything about the software backend): might
it be easier to just hide items older than X years rather than deleting
them, and make them still be viewable via an "Old items" link? Then no
one will have to dig through all the old posts to verify that they're
still relevant,

I do not mind doing it manually. It might take me couple of days, but it's doable.

Post by Brandon Invergo
no one might get offended by their post being removed,

To put things in perspective: we're talking about 300 items, more or less.
More than %80 are stale.
Looking for a web-designer in 2002 is not relevant;
Looking for a python developer in 2005 is not relevant;
Looking for a programmer for a decommissioned project is not relevant;
Looking for a developer for a project which did not commit a single line of code to a CVS repository in 11 years is not relevant.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but that's my opinion;
To move Savannah forward, some serious purging is necessary (BTW, I'm having much more heretical purging thoughts.... but that's for another flame war :) ).

I offered (and still offer) to contact every developer who posted a job *if* their project is still active,
explain the situation and ask them to either repost or delete the item.

The issue is not technical. I can do it manually.

The issue is whether you (Savannah chiefs) agree or not, since I'm new here and I will not do it without consensus.

Post by Brandon Invergo
That is, of course, only if that part of the code is easy to hack on.

I hope to get to know the front-end code well enough to improve it,
but I think that if this task can be done without code changes - the better.


- Assaf.

[Karl Berry]

Follow-up Comment #7, sr #106581 (project administration):

Hi Assaf - nothing to apologize for; I'm all for directness :). I just
wanted to know if there was something better than Savannah's jobs that
we could use for GNU "technical help wanted" organization in general.

I completely agree that all the specific jobs you've mentioned are
clearly postings that should be updated or removed. Please go ahead
with them.

However, I guess I resist the notion that a job has to be "recent" as
defined purely by date of modification. My job posting for Texinfo is
not recent, but it is still valid, and there is nothing to change in the
text:
https://savannah.gnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=1548&job_id=561

Regarding your "effective method" (I hate web interfaces that make
quoting such a pain), I agree with #1 and #2, I strongly disagree with #3
and #4, and #5 depends on what we call "outdated". The kinds of posts
you have noted are outdated, and fail criteria #2 as well. But not just
because a post was done X years ago. (Contacting the poster to see if
it's still relevant would always be fine, but not just removal.)

Also, I see nothing wrong with generic/permanent "we need developer"
posts, like for the Hurd. If and since Savannah jobs are "GNU help
wanted", well, having a job posting is our recommended way to get
visibility to potential contributors. Not every project would want
such; for example, I don't have such one for Texinfo (any more) because,
amazingly enough, new people came forward as a result of my previous job
postings.

Regarding decommissioned packages: Brandon and I are generally the one
who implement the "decommissioning", and it has been simply one step too
many to deal with deleting old jobs, and besides, people often come
forward wanting to clean up the job list (even though almost nothing has
ever actually happened :(). Please go ahead and remove any such!

Regarding -unavailable-: isn't this at least sometimes because email
addresses are not exposed unless you're logged in? I don't see
-unavailable- when I look at the findutils job
https://savannah.gnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3972&job_id=542
I see the (incorrect :) bug-findutils-***@gnu.org, not -unavailable-.

You might argue that email addresses in job postings should be exposed
to people not logged in, but that's a different conversation.

Thanks for taking this one.

karl


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[Assaf Gordon]

Follow-up Comment #8, sr #106581 (project administration):

Hello,

I have failed to convince you with my sweeping 'delete all old messages'
scheme :)
So I'll have to do it one-by-one...

Please note the general trend rising from these messages... I do think these
are many 'stale' projects,
which also relates to our other discussion in savannah-hackers-public mailing
list.

Please take a cursory view at the third (last) group of posting, and I hope
you'll agree those can be deleted as well - I'll wait for your response before
deleting any.

To be continued,
- Assaf


##
## I have deleted these job postings
##

### 2002 - GNU 3dKit - This package been decommissioned
https://savannah.gnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=496&job_id=132

### 2006 - DotGNU - decommissioned
https://savannah.gnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=353&job_id=442
https://savannah.gnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=353&job_id=443

### 2006 - Free Highschool Science texts
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=4607&job_id=438
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/editjob.php?group_id=4607&job_id=317


##
## Email sent to authors about these job posting, waiting for reply.
##

### 2001 - W3, last code commit in 2008.
https://savannah.gnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=98&job_id=8

### 2001 - X Language - last code update 10 years ago. Last website update - 3
years ago.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=822&job_id=36

### 2002 - YaRET CD Encoder - Last Code/Release/Website update 10 years ago.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=1353&job_id=51

### 2002 - ParaGUI, last code commit / download - 10 years ago.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=1830&job_id=75

### 2002 - bananapos - last code commit - 9 years ago. No downloads.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=1795&job_id=81
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=1795&job_id=82

### 2002 - Iso-Enginner (game), last code commit 12 years ago. Last non-spam
mailing list message: 2002. Last homepage update: 2002.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=2112&job_id=93

### 2002 - MP3do, last code commit 9 years ago. Last release download: 2004.
Last non-spam mailing list post - 2002.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=999&job_id=123

### 2002 - Muddleftpd, last code commit, download release, homepage update:
2002. Last non-spam mailing list post - 2003.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3025&job_id=124

### 2002 - gnumed - project is active elsewhere
https://savannah.gnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=542&job_id=135


##
## I want to delete these messages without asking the authors.
##

### 2001 - kakadu - no code, no homepage, no downloads.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=215&job_id=11

### 2001 - Web-Site-Engine - last commit 12 years ago, last non-spam
mailing-list message (unanswered): Oct 2002.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=297&job_id=14

### 2001 - SimaKey server - last commit 12 years ago. no downloads, no
homepage, no (non-spam) mailing-list emails.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=448&job_id=17

### 2001 - AOO Bug Tracking System - no code, no downloads, homepage redirects
to nonexisting host.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=392&job_id=21

### 2001/2 - Jtrix - no code, no downloads, homepage redirects to nonexisting
host.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=576&job_id=24
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=576&job_id=28
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=576&job_id=43

### 2001 - Calcux - no code, no downloads, no homepage
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=651&job_id=26
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=651&job_id=27

### 2001 - HackSQL Database - no code, no downloads, no homepage
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=772&job_id=29

### 2002 - Universal Character Generator - last code commit 12 years ago.
HomePage,Downloads,Mailinglist all lead to HTTP-404.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=1169&job_id=45

### 2002 - ZotzBrothers POS Plus - last code commit 12 years ago, Last website
updated 12 years ago. 1 non-spam test message in mailing list.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=998&job_id=46
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=998&job_id=47

### 2002 - Equinox Desktop Environment - last code commit 12 years ago.
## All signs indicates that development moved to SourceForge, last commit
there is July 2014):
## http://sourceforge.net/p/ede/code/HEAD/tree/
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=1012&job_id=48

### 2002 - TipJar - no code, no homepage, no downloads
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=574&job_id=52

### 2002 - POWA - no code, no homepage, no downloads, no mailing list
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=1683&job_id=59

### 2002 - Libysys - No code, no downloads, Homepage gives 404.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=2071&job_id=84

### 2002 - Quagga (formally "gnulist" ???)
### The project name is "Quagga", but the project id is "gnulist".
### "gnulist"'s last commit was 7 years ago.
### Clicking "Homepage" redirects to a Non-GNU project "Quagga - Routing
Stack"
### which is very active (but is not related to this help-wanted post).
https://savannah.gnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=33&job_id=86

### 2002 - RubyServer, no code. Stub HomePage. No Downloads. Last non-spam
mailing-list post - 2002.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=2848&job_id=117

### 2002 - Debian Control Center. Last code commit 11 years ago. No Home page,
no downloads. Only spam in mailing list.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3070&job_id=128

### 2002 - Border Crosser (text game). Last code commit - 11 years ago. Last
homepage update: Dec 2002. No release downloads. Single non-spam mailing-list
message: 2002.
### Multiple broken links to author's homepage, sourceforge project page.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3211&job_id=136

### 2002 - ***@Schools. Last code commit - 10 years ago. No home page. No
downloads, no Mailing lists.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3240&job_id=145

### 2002 - Free CNAB standards. No homepage, no downloads, no code commit, no
mailing list.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3549&job_id=152

### 2003 - indigo GLB. No homepage, No downloads, No code commits, no mailing
list.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3634&job_id=155
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3634&job_id=156



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[Karl Berry]

Follow-up Comment #9, sr #106581 (project administration):

I agree with deleting everything in your new (third) group without asking.
(No one to ask. :) Thank you for all your efforts.

Just FYI, the story on "quagga" is that the FSF had a host and/or used
software by that name. As you said, it's not related to
quagga-the-routing-software. (The routing quagga originated with GNU zebra,
as far as I understood it, but that was sadly abandoned and some quagga
developers were not especially friendly to GNU.)

Regarding the other discussion, I hope I'll have time to write a reply today.

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[Assaf Gordon]

Follow-up Comment #10, sr #106581 (project administration):

Clean-up continues.

Said items (from previous message) were deleted.
Additionally I've deleted the following posts which belonged to the same
projects:

https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=297&job_id=20
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=1012&job_id=257
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=33&job_id=19
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=33&job_id=18
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3240&job_id=140
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3240&job_id=141
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3240&job_id=142
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3240&job_id=144
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3240&job_id=145


Below is the next batch, for your consideration.
Waiting for your 'go ahead'.

### 2003 - Source INSTALLer (source package installer) - No homepage, no
downloads, Last code commit 2003. One (1) test message in mailing list from
2003.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3566&job_id=158

### 2003 - Probity - Web Proxy Filter, no downloads, last code commit in 2003.
Last homepage updated in 2003. Two non-spam messages from 2002 (one in each
mailing list).
### Home page Says "Probity is an open source software currently in planning
phases".
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=2615&job_id=159
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=2615&job_id=168

### 2003 - PYantra (IRC Bot). No downloads. Stub Homepage. Last code commit 10
years ago. No mailing list.
### Home page has one line, says "The bunch of idiots who wrote me are busy
writing python code." It might have been funny in 2003.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3664&job_id=161

### 2003 - Conduet Operating System. No download. Homepage link broken. No
source code.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3852&job_id=166
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3852&job_id=174

### 2003 - Minorfish (mailing list web manager). No downloads. Stub Home page
last updated in 2001. Last code commit 11 years ago. No mailing list.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=224&job_id=180
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=224&job_id=279

### 2003 - Babele. No homepage, No Downloads, no code, no mailing list.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=4129&job_id=186

### 2003 - Unofficial OSKit source (seems GNU Hurd related?)
### no downloads, stub homepage. last code commit 11 years ago. No mailing
list.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3667&job_id=210

### 2003 - BotBot. Homepage link broken. No downloads. Mailing-list links
broken. Last code commit 11 years ago.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=1457&job_id=218

### 2003 - NEXml. No homepage, downloads, mailing-list, code commits.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=4273&job_id=220

### 2003 - Scrudgeware (packaging tool) - Homepage link broken. Downloads link
broken. Last code commit 11 years ago. No mailing list.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=4355&job_id=225

### 2003 - lib PHTML Parse. Stub homepage. One release download from 2004. No
mailing list. No code commits.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=4561&job_id=235
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=4561&job_id=236

### 2003 - Maja (3d real-time games) - no homepage, no downloads, no code, no
mailing list.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=4357&job_id=239
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=4357&job_id=240

### 2003 - Model Builder graphical ODE Simulator. Homepage link broken. No
downloads. No mailing list. Last code commit 10 years ago.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=4241&job_id=246

### 2003 - XBox game manager. Homepage and Downloads redirect to SourceForge
(where there's activity from 2006). On Savanah, no source code or mailing
list.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=4884&job_id=259

### 2003 - Search-CCSB. No Homepage, no Downloads, no mailing list. Last code
commit 11 years ago.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=4612&job_id=264
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=4612&job_id=265

### 2003 - HackedBox. Homepage, download links broken. Last code commit 10
years ago.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=4373&job_id=284

### 2003 - dvdrtools. No code commited. Last Homepage update 8 years ago.
Mailing list activeity until 2007.
### Homepage says "dvdrtools has moved to
http://www.arklinux.org/projects/dvdrtools." (which is a broken link).
### several download release files, *all* from same date 5-Feb-2005 .
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=1171&job_id=293

### 2003 - Security Toolkit.
### Last code/homepage/mailing-list activity: 2004.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=5166&job_id=297

### 2003 - Pygmalion (python game). No homepage, no downloads, no mailing
list. Last code commit 10 years ago.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=5173&job_id=298


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[Karl Berry]

Follow-up Comment #11, sr #106581 (project administration):

i'm fine with deleting those jobs. tx.


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[Karl Berry]

Follow-up Comment #12, sr #106581 (project administration):

p.s. when your research so conclusively shows that a project is dead, i don't
feel any need to confirm it :). feel free to just go ahead and zap them. all
i would say is, if there are edge cases, better to err on the side of
contact/non-deletion.


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[Assaf Gordon]

Follow-up Comment #13, sr #106581 (project administration):

The previously listed posts were deleted, as well as the followings:

https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=5244&job_id=301
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=2634&job_id=302
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=5596&job_id=316
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=4637&job_id=323
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=5209&job_id=326
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=5209&job_id=303
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=5209&job_id=304
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=7543&job_id=402
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=8082&job_id=424
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=7383&job_id=396
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=865&job_id=40
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=1835&job_id=74
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=1835&job_id=85
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=2237&job_id=94
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=2444&job_id=104
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3519&job_id=176
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=4827&job_id=263
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=5307&job_id=318

- Assaf.

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[Assaf Gordon]

Follow-up Comment #14, sr #106581 (project administration):

I've continued and deleted the following posts:

https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=2053&job_id=88
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=487&job_id=102
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=1978&job_id=114
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3232&job_id=138
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=2931&job_id=149
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3552&job_id=230
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=5156&job_id=296
https://savannah.gnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=4407&job_id=330
https://savannah.gnu.org/people/editjob.php?group_id=4407&job_id=242
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=8681&job_id=452
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=1795&job_id=81
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=2112&job_id=93
https://savannah.gnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=4741&job_id=436
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=999&job_id=123
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3025&job_id=124
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/editjob.php?group_id=3025&job_id=125
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=1830&job_id=75


I do not think there are any other obvious candidates for deletion,
though I do think many of the postings/projects could be considered stale.
But a more detailed examination will be required for that.

- Assaf

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[Assaf Gordon]

Follow-up Comment #15, sr #106581 (project administration):

Hello,

More old job-posting for your consideration.
Please reply if those can be deleted.

BTW,
If you have access to fencepost, you can quickly see information about a
project like so:
===
$ cd ~agn/gnu-sv-proj-stats-09-2014/
# Change "P=XXXX" to the SV project identifier
$ awk -v P=wasp 'NR==1 || $1==P' gnu-sv-projects.txt \
| cut -f1,2,3,5,10,14,16,17 | expand -t20

project_name project_type code_vcs code_max_year
web_max_year url_homepage homepage_ok download_ok
wasp non-gnu cvs 2005.56
2004.75 http://www.nongnu.org/wasp/ 1
0
===

-Assaf .


2004: project "Stolen Lives", need PHP developers:
website active but not on "nongnu.org", no code, no releases.
It seems like it has nothing to do with GNU Savannah any more.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=3991&job_id=332

2004: "Free Beltane 1":
Karl - this is your project...
Last update is 2005...
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=7024&job_id=375

2005: "texi2latex": need XSLT developer.
last code update: 2008.
last release: 2005.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=7104&job_id=379

2005: "Nightrise" - irc daemon.
Last code update: 2005.
No releases.
No homepage.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=7179&job_id=384

2005: "Ghosts (Genealogy Software)"
Last code update: 2004.
Last release: 2004.
Last website update: 2004.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=2649&job_id=395
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=2649&job_id=407

2005: "Web App Security Project": Ruby developer
No releases.
Last code update: 2005.
Last website update: 2004.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=6763&job_id=412

2005: "aeskulap": DICOM developer
last code update: 2007.
last website update: 2007.
no releases.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=7892&job_id=417

2005: "fatcontroler" : Python Developer
last code commit: 2005
no website commits, no home page.
Last release: 2005.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=7780&job_id=422

2006: "gann (Geek Artificial Neural Network)": C/C++ developer
Last code commit: 2006
No website commits, no home page.
last release: 2006.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=7914&job_id=435

2006: "afg" (game): python developer
last code commit: 2006.
last website update: 2006
last release: 2006.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=7750&job_id=451

2006: Curphoo: curses developer
last code commit: 2006
last website update: 2006
last release: 2006.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=4600&job_id=453
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=4600&job_id=454

2006: "penalyze2": web-developer
last code commit: 2006
last website update: 2006 (only a stub homepage)
no releases.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=8704&job_id=455


2006: apso: (security proof of concept)
no code commits
last release: 2008
Home page not hosted on nongnu.org .
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=8753&job_id=458

2006: "Jari OS": system C developers
no code commits.
no downloads.
stub homepage.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=8880&job_id=465



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[Tanya]

Follow-up Comment #16, sr #106581 (project administration):

For those who prefer to work remotely:
http://www.joydownload.com/how-to/use-teamviewer - here you will find an easy
manual how to use TeamViewer.

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[Ian Gilfillan]

Follow-up Comment #17, sr #106581 (project administration):

I am strongly in favour of automatically removing old "projects needing help"
posts. Ideally the software would send a reminder after x (say 6) months
asking the submitter to respond by clicking a link if the posting is still
required, and if so, the date is updated, and if not, the post is
hidden/deleted. Having posts from 2001, as is the current situation, devalues
the entire section.

In the meantime, this can be done manually (I am happy to help) by emailing
the submitter, and then either hiding/deleting or updating the date.

If all old posts are deleted, that would leave a usable section of 9 current
posts, rather than 125 posts, almost all ancient.


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[Max]

Follow-up Comment #18, sr #106581 (project administration):

Feature request.




On installed git, add inline, prompt path info on which git branch
the programmer is.

The image on the right half showcase for mac.
Loading Image...


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[Karl Berry]

Hi Brandon,

(Sorry for the delayed reply.)

One specific question about the Savane
software: can the author manually just update the date of the post or
does the text have to be updated in order to do so?

As I recall, there's no direct control over the date; I expect you have
to update some text. However, just adding a space to the end or some
other such non-change should be enough.

still I would want to strongly encourage that they at least update
the date.

I agree with you completely.

My name is Brandon Invergo and I am helping to [clean
up?/moderate?/organize?/keep clean?] the Help Wanted

How about: "review".

Savannah, the GNU software forge. On Month DD, YYYY, you posted an ad

Probably including a url to the job in there would be helpful.
Also (trivial), I suggest a blank line before the "On Month...".

Also, we don't want to blast maintainers with one email for every old
job they posted. It would be better to send them one email with all the
old jobs, if we can manage it.

is, we would like to encourage you to update the [date?/text?], helping

How about: "it" :).

then we would request that you set its status to "Closed"

How about adding something like:
", so as to keep Savannah up to date. I would be happy to do this for
you if you like."


My experience is that many maintainers are happy to reply to an email
saying "sure go ahead" but that if they go to figure out some web
interface that they haven't looked at in 5 years, it'll never happen.
This comes up with the mailing lists all the time, I can tell you from
personal experience :).

I can send such admin emails from the email address on my personal
domain rather than from this Gmail one.

It doesn't matter, but I'm always in favor of avoiding gmail.
Also, we could certainly make a GNU alias or account for you.
Are you on the savannah lists yet?

Thanks again Brandon,
karl

[Brandon Invergo]

Hi Karl,

First, a couple direct responses and then I'll put an updated draft
letter at the end.

Post by Karl Berry
Also, we don't want to blast maintainers with one email for every old
job they posted. It would be better to send them one email with all the
old jobs, if we can manage it.

That shouldn't be a problem, I think.

Post by Karl Berry
It doesn't matter, but I'm always in favor of avoiding gmail.
Also, we could certainly make a GNU alias or account for you.
Are you on the savannah lists yet?

I am on savannah-hackers-public, savannah-announce, savannah-help-public
(just now) and savannah-users (just now). As for a GNU alias or account,
I should perhaps earn that badge :) It's ok for me to use my account
(***@invergo.net) for now.

Here's an updated proposed letter (obviously, I would adjust the wording
for cases of individual posts):

----
Hello,
My name is Brandon Invergo and I am helping to review the Help Wanted
section of Savannah, the GNU software forge.

The following posts of yours are still marked as "open" in the system:
YYYY/MM/DD - "Title" [1]; YYYY/MM/DD - "Title 2" [2]. Are these calls
still open?

In an effort to keep the Help Wanted section up-to-date, if they are
still open, we would like to encourage you to update them. If a
position's description has not changed, a trivial addition to the text
should be enough to update the post's date. If the positions are no
longer open, then we would request that you set their status to
"Closed," which would hide them from view.

I would be happy to do a minor update or to close the post for you, if
you would like. Keep in mind that if the position becomes available
again, you are welcome to re-open the call.

Thank you very much for your help.
Cheers,
Brandon

[1] https://savannah.gnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=XX&job_id=XXX
[2] https://savannah.gnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=XX&job_id=XXX
----

[Karl Berry]

Here's an updated proposed letter

Looks great, Brandon! I say go for it :).

Thanks much,
k

[Brandon Invergo]

Ok great! Just one thing: is it already possible for me to close
positions on the site or will I need special account permissions (not
that I have anything to close yet, of course...just in anticipation).

Cheers,
Brandon

Post by Brandon Invergo
Here's an updated proposed letter
Looks great, Brandon! I say go for it :).
Thanks much,
k

[Brandon Invergo]

Hi Karl et al.

I've sent out a good number of messages (~50) and I've started getting
some responses. Generally the response is good: some simply forgot about
the posting and want it closed, some took the cue to update and some
have removed the posts themselves. No one seems upset by the proposal.

Two notes:
1) Jobs don't have a "Closed" status, but they do have a "Deleted"
status which does what we intended (the post remains in the system but
not visible on the list). I've changed the wording of my email to
reflect that. (just an FYI)
2) Updating the text of the post does not actually bump the date. So,
can it be changed manually? Or should we just not worry about it?
Another option would be to have the user put something like "Updated 14
Feb 2012" in the description.

I already have a couple of requests for the closing or updating to be
done on their behalf. I wanted to only send out to a portion of the
total posts, to see how the response was. Shall I wait until I've sent
out messages to the rest before taking action? Or shall I put the
"action list" online somewhere for an admin to take care of it?

Cheers,
Brandon

Post by Brandon Invergo
Here's an updated proposed letter
Looks great, Brandon! I say go for it :).
Thanks much,
k

[Karl Berry]

Hi Brandon,

is it already possible for me to close
positions on the site or will I need special account permissions

I surely hope you will need permission :), and of course it's no problem
to arrange that when the need arrives ...

Thanks again,
k

[Karl Berry]

Hi Brandon,

I've sent out a good number of messages (~50) and I've started getting
some responses. Generally the response is good:

Excellent.

2) Updating the text of the post does not actually bump the date.

Drat. Michael, would it be feasible for the visible date in job posting
to reflect the mtime rather than the ctime (analogously speaking :)?
(I assume that is what is happening, but then, I've already made one
wrong assumption, so who knows ...)

Shall I wait until I've sent out messages to the rest before taking
action?

I see no reason to wait.

Or shall I put the "action list" online somewhere for an
admin to take care of it?

We want *you* to be the admin :). I've just added you to the
"administration" project, so -- after you log out and in again, I
suppose -- you should be able to "become superuser" in the
savannah.gnu.org web interface and do stuff. Let me/us know if problems ...

Thanks for all,
Karl

[Brandon Invergo]

Post by Brandon Invergo
2) Updating the text of the post does not actually bump the date.
Drat. Michael, would it be feasible for the visible date in job posting
to reflect the mtime rather than the ctime (analogously speaking :)?
(I assume that is what is happening, but then, I've already made one
wrong assumption, so who knows ...)

In case it helps to identify what's (not) happening, this is the posting
that an author updated in which the date was not bumped:
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=10372&job_id=544

Post by Brandon Invergo
Shall I wait until I've sent out messages to the rest before taking
action?
I see no reason to wait.
Or shall I put the "action list" online somewhere for an
admin to take care of it?
We want *you* to be the admin :). I've just added you to the
"administration" project, so -- after you log out and in again, I
suppose -- you should be able to "become superuser" in the
savannah.gnu.org web interface and do stuff. Let me/us know if problems ...

Ok great! I'll get started this week. I'll be a bit slow at first,
though, since I only have one of those USB 3G modems at home for the
next couple of weeks. If I run into any hiccups, I'll post them here.

Cheers,
Brandon

[Michael J. Flickinger]

Post by Brandon Invergo

Post by Brandon Invergo
2) Updating the text of the post does not actually bump the date.
Drat. Michael, would it be feasible for the visible date in job posting
to reflect the mtime rather than the ctime (analogously speaking :)?
(I assume that is what is happening, but then, I've already made one
wrong assumption, so who knows ...)

In case it helps to identify what's (not) happening, this is the posting
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=10372&job_id=544

Yes, I'll look into this.

Post by Brandon Invergo

Post by Brandon Invergo
Shall I wait until I've sent out messages to the rest before taking
action?
I see no reason to wait.
Or shall I put the "action list" online somewhere for an
admin to take care of it?
We want *you* to be the admin :). I've just added you to the
"administration" project, so -- after you log out and in again, I
suppose -- you should be able to "become superuser" in the
savannah.gnu.org web interface and do stuff. Let me/us know if problems ...

Ok great! I'll get started this week. I'll be a bit slow at first,
though, since I only have one of those USB 3G modems at home for the
next couple of weeks. If I run into any hiccups, I'll post them here.

Thanks :)

Post by Brandon Invergo
Cheers,
Brandon

[Karl Berry]

2004: "Free Beltane 1":
Karl - this is your project...
Last update is 2005...
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=7024&job_id=375

I created it per rms -- Beltane became nonfree, and when he hears about
that, he immediately wants to fork a free version and look for people to
work on it. So it should stay (forever), unless you want to take it up
with him.

2005: "texi2latex": need XSLT developer.
last code update: 2008.
last release: 2005.
https://savannah.nongnu.org/people/viewjob.php?group_id=7104&job_id=379

Well, I suppose it's improbable that anyone will ever come forward, but
we still refer to that project occasionally in the Texinfo world, so I
think it may as well stay until we implement a real LaTeX backend in
makeinfo, which won't be any time soon.

I have nothing against dropping the other jobs you list.
(Especially for projects with no commits ever. No reason to check about
those if it comes up in the future, just kill them.)

thanks,
karl